(edited transcript)
JULIAN ZELIZER
Hi everyone, welcome back to Then and Now. I’m Julian Zelizer of The Longview.
JONATHAN ALTER
And I’m Jonathan Alter of Old Goats.
JULIAN ZELIZER
So, Jon, I was reading the Financial Times, and I saw an article that I thought would interest both of us. It essentially makes the comparison between President Carter and Iran in 1979 and ‘80 during the Iran hostage crisis, and President Trump and Iran today.
The author, Ed Luce, points to many differences. He argues that Carter rejected the Monroe Doctrine, while Trump seems to embrace it. Carter did the Rose Garden strategy of essentially going dark for a while on the issue, while Trump is trying to shape how people see this.
But he argues that, in the end, both presidents became trapped, so to speak, by the logic and dynamics of what Iran wanted and their internal politics. And I was curious, as the biographer of Carter, what you thought of that comparison.
JONATHAN ALTER
Well, Carter was the un-Trump in many ways. I remember when I was turning the pages of the documents at the Carter Library in Atlanta, they would sort of brush aside the toxins of Trump when I would read about Carter’s honesty and integrity.
But it’s a pretty valid comparison in that both of them, as you said, are kind of hostages to the Iranians.
So, in Carter’s case, it was real hostages: 52 Americans who were being held hostage. And then they essentially took his presidency hostage by holding them.
In Trump’s case, the hostage is the Strait of Hormuz. That’s the hostage. And it allows the Iranians to yank Trump’s chain in the same way they yanked Carter’s chain.
And whatever else you say about them, the Iranians are terrific negotiators. And I don’t think it’s engaging in unfair stereotypes to say that anytime somebody’s bought a Persian rug, they know what I mean.
So the chances of Trump getting out of this in an advantageous position, I think, are quite low. And you’ll see him continue to muddle through, continue to change his mind day to day on what’s going to happen next. And you will see continued erosion in his support for a very, very unpopular war.
JULIAN ZELIZER
And just to add to one point you just mentioned, in both cases, it’s Iranians seizing on something relatively small compared to the U.S. arsenal. In one case, actual hostages, and in this case, the Strait of Hormuz, which is bigger, but it’s still not kind of a massive piece of land or weapon. And in both cases, exposing the fragility of American power.
JONATHAN ALTER
Yeah, no, I think that’s a great point. Nixon talked about the U.S. becoming a helpless, pitiful giant. He was saying that in the context of the Vietnam War.
But Carter did look weak on that issue. And he was a terrific president in many other ways, as I explain in my book, and you do in your book about Carter. But when it came to Iran, he was just basically out of his depth, and the same is true of Trump.
JULIAN ZELIZER
Well, I hope by the time we speak next week, the New York Knicks are the NBA champions, but we will wait and see. Thanks, Jon. We’ll talk soon.
JONATHAN ALTER
Thanks. Bye-bye.
