The Wolff-Epstein Tapes

Michael Wolff is sitting on a trove of 100 hours of interviews with Jeffrey Epstein and says he sent Epstein a message only hours before his death.

I first met the author Michael Wolff around the turn of the century, and we became friendly. Then he quoted me by name in two books saying things that I had assumed were off the record. I remained pissed at him for nearly 25 years.

Last summer, we were both covering the Trump felony trial in lower Manhattan. After court one day, I was sitting in a nearby cafe and filing one of my mini-columns for the New York Times Opinion section, and he was the only other patron in the place. We started talking, and he sincerely apologized for doing things to me that he said he couldn’t even remember. He said he had wronged others, too, and was sorry for it. I accepted his apology and we hung out some for the rest of the trial. As the author of three books on Trump, he was so well-sourced in Trump World that he could sometimes predict what Trump’s attorneys, Todd Blanche (now deputy attorney general) and Emil Bove (soon to be a federal judge), would do in court. That impressed me. He is often criticized for inaccuracy but as far as I can tell, that’s mostly jealousy.

This week, I wanted to know more about Wolff’s many interviews with Jeffrey Epstein, who we just learned from The Wall Street Journal got a special birthday gift in 2003 from Donald Trump. (The story prompted another of Trump’s ridiculous lawsuits, this one against Rupert Murdoch). So far, Wolff has released only snippets of his tapes, which establish for certain that Trump and Epstein were close for ten years. We agreed that Epstein’s death is now becoming like the Kennedy assassination, with a cottage industry of conspiracy theories. I had Perplexity AI edit the transcript of the hour-long interview for length and clarity, and it did so without changing his words or hallucinating:

JONATHAN ALTER:

Hi, Michael:

So, before we talk about you and Epstein, I just wanted to ask where you think we are right now in the story and why. Do you think this will just blow over like everything else with Trump?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

As you say, everything else does blow over. So, why wouldn’t this? The reasons this might not blow over, or might at least continue to hover around, are that, in a way, I think what's going on here is the beginning of the lame duck phase [of the Trump presidency]. Many of the MAGA people out there are likely positioning themselves for when the action really begins over who will take over, who will be the MAGA voice. All of these aspirational people in the MAGA universe Z— from [Steve] Bannon to Tucker Carlson — have to not only distance themselves from Trump at some point, but also reposition themselves against [J.D.] Vance, who goes into this as the favorite. The more they can create a situation that ties Vance to Trump and to hiding Epstein, the more it benefits them. I think that’s one of the dynamics at play. Another dynamic is that there is a lot there, and Trump is highly vulnerable on this. He had a close relationship with Epstein for more than a decade, and I’m not sure how he can quite escape that, although, admittedly, he has until now.

JONATHAN ALTER:

If what's in there is really damaging, why do you think the Biden administration didn’t release it?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

I don’t know. I can’t speak to that. While there may be damaging material about Trump, there’s probably a lot that’s damaging to other people as well.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Like Bill Clinton?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

Like Bill Clinton, but also a full assortment of people. Depending on what is released — let’s say the emails are released — Epstein will have had email contact with many prominent people. Even if their relationship was purely businesslike, they would still be harmed by the association with Jeffrey Epstein. I have recently gone through my own emails with Epstein and thought, “Oh, my God.”

JONATHAN ALTER:

What is in those, while we're on that subject? What led you to say “Oh, my God”?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

It was just realizing I had emails, wondering what was in them. There’s relatively little: logistics, scheduling, nothing more. If I were not clearly a journalist showing up to interview him, you might wonder why I was there or what was going on. That will be the case for many people who were not journalists but visited him.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Let's talk about you and Epstein. When, where, and why did you first meet Jeffrey Epstein and then go back for multiple interviews?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

I first met him at the TED conference, as far back as, maybe, 2001. In 2004, Epstein was part of a group proposing to buy New York Magazine, and I was involved. That group included Mort Zuckerman, Epstein, Harvey Weinstein, Donny Deutsch, Nelson Peltz, and others; the deal didn't happen because another buyer prevailed. I got to know Epstein better then.

In 2014, he approached me about writing a book. I wasn’t interested, but he suggested we have conversations to see if I became interested, and I did find them fascinating. At some point, I began recording. In 2015, as Trump started his campaign, Epstein became a source; I had no idea about his relationship with Trump until he began to tell me stories, which were useful. Then Bannon entered the picture. I was privy to both Epstein and Bannon discussing Trump in revealing ways.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Were most interviews at his townhouse in New York City?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

Yes, most were. A couple occurred in restaurants, and one or two sessions at his house in Paris.

JONATHAN ALTER:

If you had to guess, how many sessions did you have with him?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

I would say there’s close to 100 hours of tape — maybe over 30 sessions.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Beyond what he thought of Trump, what else did you talk about with him?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

Jeffrey Epstein was interesting on an extraordinary range of subjects and full of information. This is where the idea that he was an intelligence agent comes in, but in retrospect, what he knew was more gossip than intelligence, though it was interesting gossip.

JONATHAN ALTER:

What do you think are the chances he was a Mossad intelligence asset?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

I think nonexistent. He functioned by gathering information, but always to share it with anyone to his own advantage, not as a singular conduit to a client.

JONATHAN ALTER:

He was very smart. Could you see what someone like Bill Gates liked about being there?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

It was informative and pleasurable to be there. The conversation was at a high level, and Epstein was an accommodating host, almost like conducting a chat show. People enjoyed being there, like at a men’s club, able to speak openly with people they might not otherwise meet, including some who stayed all day.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Not for sex — they were there for the intellectual stimulation?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

I never saw anything sexual. There was always a retinue of women, like women in prestigious art galleries, essentially room decorations, possibly part of Epstein’s allure. Epstein lived a life these other men might have wanted, or at least imagined.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Did they look like “Trump-y” women?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

No — they were less out-of-town looking, more Ivy League.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Were they conspicuously young?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

They looked like they were in their 20s.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Where did you sit for these interviews?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

Always in his dining room at a large table, where food would be served.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Other than Bill Gates, who else did you see there that people would know?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

Many people, but I only want to mention those already publicly named; I'll come back to that.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Will there be new, surprising names when you write about this?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

Yes. I wrote an essay in 2021 about what happened inside his house, though I was reluctant to publish it. Eventually, I included it as the last chapter in my collection, Too Famous. It paints a vivid picture of Epstein’s final days, meetings with his brain trust, Bannon media-training him for a 60 Minutes mea culpa, a PR group in Paris, and his final moments.

JONATHAN ALTER:

What year was this?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

2019, between March and August, when he died.

JONATHAN ALTER:

He showed you a few photos of Trump with women of indeterminate age. Do you think they still exist?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

I have no way of knowing if the pictures he showed me are destroyed. He kept them in his safe, which the FBI raided. I assume they took the contents, which would now be part of the Epstein file, but I don’t know if the pictures were there at the time of the search, though it would have been likely.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Isn’t it likely that the most incriminating stuff in the Epstein files has been destroyed?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

I don’t know. A lot of people, like Assistant U.S. attorneys and FBI agents, would have seen this material. Would they go out on a limb to hide it? I don't know.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Could Trump be nervous about leaks from the FBI?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

I don't know. I think Trump is nervous about his long relationship with Epstein, which he has always ignored, denied, or swept under the rug, but now he’s being cornered by it.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Can you share something from those 100 hours of interviews about Trump that we don’t know?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

I can share a funny story: In 1989 or 1990, Trump’s father made him look at real estate in Brooklyn. Trump took Epstein in a limo with two girls, each with a dog. Trump said, “No dogs,” and Epstein replied, “No dogs, no girls.” Trump relented, and they all went together. Epstein later told Trump not to become a Brooklyn developer or he’d never speak to him again.

JONATHAN ALTER:

That’s an example of them trash-talking — the kind of thing they found funny.

MICHAEL WOLFF:

Yeah.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Why did the friendship end?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

It ended over real estate. In 2004, Epstein believed he was the high bidder on a Palm Beach house at $36 million and took Trump to see it and to give him advice on moving the swimming pool. Trump then promptly went around his back and outbid him at $40 million, though he likely didn’t have $40 million; Epstein believed Trump was fronting for someone and threatened to sue him. Epstein believed Trump then informed the police in Palm Beach that he had a never-ending stream of underage girls in and out of his house there, and thus began his long years of legal peril.

JONATHAN ALTER:

All of this was about ten years before you talked to Epstein about his relationship with Trump?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

Yes. The real estate incident was the same as the one involving a Russian oligarch [Dmitry Rybolovlev] buying the property from Trump for $95 million two years later [in 2008].

JONATHAN ALTER:

The deal was reported in 2016, but not the Epstein connection. The oligarch got to launder more than $50 million.

MICHAEL WOLFF:

Exactly. I reported about it in 2018 or 2019, in my second [Trump] book.

JONATHAN ALTER:

What else did you learn specifically about Trump and Epstein?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

Epstein talked about how Trump liked to pick up girls, sleep with other men's wives, liked black women, and at one point, they shared a girlfriend for almost a year.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Did you find out who that was?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

No, but I have a fairly good idea.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Did Epstein ever lie about Trump?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

I had no reason to think so. The details and involvement of other people lead me to believe it was mostly true. I just received an email from someone who said that in the early ’90s, Charles Allen [co-founder of Allen and Co.] introduced this person to Donald Trump, who was with Epstein and called him “Jeffy.”

JONATHAN ALTER:

Is it your audio online where Epstein says Trump was his best friend?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

Yes, it is. I’ve released it a couple of times, most recently before the 2024 election, after a former Epstein girlfriend came forward with allegations against Trump.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Did you ever believe Trump was seeing underage girls?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

I don’t know. All I know is he spent enormous time with Epstein, obviously knew what was going on there, and they hunted girls together, including when they were in business with modeling agencies. There’s the “calendar” story — Miss Whoever, beauty pageants at Mar-a-Lago, with an audience of two: Epstein and Trump. I saw pictures of girls around Epstein’s pool in Palm Beach. Their age and what Trump was doing with them, other than the fact that they were topless, I don’t know.

JONATHAN ALTER:

You’ve described a couple of photos he took from his safe and showed you: one showed topless women sitting with Trump, and one showed women pointing at a stain on his pants and laughing. Is that right?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

Yes, that’s right.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Were they of indeterminate age or in their 20s?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

They were of indeterminate age.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Is it relevant that lawyer David Schoen said Epstein was upbeat before his death?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

David Schoen was not Epstein’s lawyer. This is Schoen inventing this. Schoen, who was one of Trump’s lawyers during the second impeachment and left in tears, claims to have been Epstein’s lawyer but was not.

JONATHAN ALTER:

His meeting with Epstein nine days before his death isn’t particularly relevant?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

I don’t know if it’s true; Schoen was not his lawyer. Epstein’s lead lawyer was Reid Weingarten. I should check with Reid about his opinion on Epstein's death, but it’s clear Epstein’s will was quickly rewritten in the days before he died, leaving everything to a trust to shield beneficiaries’ identities.

JONATHAN ALTER:
Does that suggest Epstein was preparing to fight the charges and protect his wealth?

MICHAEL WOLFF:
It could. Epstein often changed his will, but given the circumstances, it’s possible that was his intent.

JONATHAN ALTER:
What was the size of his estate?

MICHAEL WOLFF:
He died with an estate of $600 million.

JONATHAN ALTER:
When did you last see him?

MICHAEL WOLFF:
He went to Paris in early June. He called me as he left his apartment on Avenue Foch in Paris to schedule breakfast the next day, but he didn’t make it because he was arrested upon arrival in the U.S.

JONATHAN ALTER:

How much later did he die?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

Roughly a month later, in the second week of August.

JONATHAN ALTER:

So you never spoke with him after his arrest, but he knew he was in serious legal jeopardy?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

Yes, his last communication may have been with me.

JONATHAN ALTER:

His last communication before his death?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

Yes, a Friday evening. He died Saturday morning. I had sent him a message — “How are you? Hope you’re holding up”— relayed through his lawyers. Several days before he died, he had apparently tried to hang himself and was put in the infirmary. His message was, “Still hanging around.” Then he died that morning with a bedsheet around his neck.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Have you taken a hard look at the infirmary incident? Schoen suggests it wasn’t necessarily a suicide attempt.

MICHAEL WOLFF:

I would discount almost everything Schoen says, based on prior dealings and what others have said about him.

JONATHAN ALTER:

How do you assess the gaps in video footage, which we just learned are worse than anyone thought?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

I don’t know much about it or the chain of custody — obviously, there are questions.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Are you agnostic about whether Epstein killed himself?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

Yes, I don’t see how he could have committed suicide by breaking his own neck, but it’s also hard to believe a conspiracy [to kill him] could be kept secret by so many.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Does that mean history will never resolve the questions, creating a cottage industry like with the Kennedy assassination?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

Yes, that’s true. The Epstein case has become a central conspiracy in American political culture, and at times feels like it will rival the Kennedy assassination in mythos.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Why is this so important to the MAGA base?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

I’m not sure. It seems contradictory, as Trump is most imperiled. But a mythology grew around Epstein as the epicenter of elites like Bill Clinton, and that’s what some believe Epstein might expose.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Is it connected to ancient anti-Jewish tropes, that Jews secretly control the world?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

Yes, it is certainly anti-Semitic. Even the way people pronounce “Epstein” is telling. The connection to Mossad and Israel feeds into this.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Why haven’t publishers signed up your book?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

I have been trying to find a forum to tell this story, but no one has been interested. It seemed to have an odor around it. I thought there would be greater interest now, but reactions suggest not. David Remnick recently called me for his podcast, which I thought meant the media was ready, but his attitude was condescending, questioning the importance of this story. Some people are still not willing to entertain this as a legitimate topic. Epstein is perhaps so demonized that it’s difficult to discuss him beyond dismissing him as a pedophile.

JONATHAN ALTER:

You said publishers thought it was too hot to handle, worried about Trump taking action?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

I never quite said that; people didn’t want to be touched by this story, or they felt tainted by it, or felt you couldn’t address it except from a victim's point of view. The story was considered too complicated.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Or maybe it's a business calculation: Unlike Trump, Epstein isn't president; not enough people would pay for a book about him.

MICHAEL WOLFF:

That could be the calculation, except that Epstein has long been an internet subject. Traditional media — The New York Times, The New Yorker — barely discuss Epstein, while the internet discusses little else.

JONATHAN ALTER:

A big publisher might not want just your Epstein conversations, but a full journalistic deep dive with 100 interviews and new stuff beyond the tapes..

MICHAEL WOLFF:

Maybe, but I do that too. I know and have spoken to the people around Epstein. The unique thing I offer is an inside look at his life and home.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Where do you think this story is going?

MICHAEL WOLFF:

I don’t know. It may have legs, depending on what is released.

JONATHAN ALTER:

They’ll have to release something. Even without a specific “client list,” the issue is now huge and can’t be ignored with public pressure so high.

MICHAEL WOLFF:

One would think so. They have his hard drive, including financial and email records, and business advice.

JONATHAN ALTER:

The politics aren’t good for Trump. Around 90 percent of Americans want these files released. Now think about polls showing 19 percent of the electorate believes in such conspiracy theories, and Trump won that group by 62 points in 2024. CNN polling shows less enthusiasm on the Republican side, even before the latest Epstein news. So for Republicans, getting [that 19 percent] to vote in the midterms will be a challenge.

MICHAEL WOLFF:

True, this could be an inflection point — but many things have seemed like potential inflection points for Trump.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Thanks, Michael.