American Autocracy

Smart and experienced friends help me figure out what the hell is going on and what we can do about it.

Top Left: Sen. Barbara Boxer, Top Right: Jonathan Alter Bottom Left: Stuart Stevens Bottom Right: Norm Ornstein

Harry Litman, Host, Talking Feds

Here are excerpts from a fascinating conversation I recently hosted with former Senator Barbara Boxer, former Republican campaign strategist Stuart Stevens and political scientist Norman Ornstein. It originally appeared on Talking Feds, the terrific podcast normally hosted by Harry Litman.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Stuart, first, are we in a slide toward autocracy, or are we in an autocracy?

STUART STEVENS:

I would say we’re in an autocracy. When you have the vice president of the United States saying that it’s perfectly legal for masked men with badges to shoot anybody they want in the face with complete immunity, when you have an army of masked men chasing brown people across the country with no consequences, when Trump can decide to remove a head of state without any discussion with Congress, we have an autocratic president and an autocratic party. I don’t think it will stay that way.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Before we get to what might happen, there’s been a lot of talk that he’s violated the Constitution by not consulting with Congress when he went into Venezuela. In 1989, we snatched Noriega, one of many interventions in Central America. LBJ sent troops to the Dominican Republic in 1965. In the 1920s, Harding, Coolidge, and Hoover sent troops to the region repeatedly without declaring war. I’m not trying to rationalize what Trump’s done; we can talk about how stupid it was. But is it really unprecedented?

BARBARA BOXER:

I’ll jump in here. The bottom line is that every president thinks they have more power than Congress. That’s historic. But what’s happening now is unprecedented. We are in a chaos presidency. Even in the history you suggested, I never heard our president say they’re going to run that country, take their oil, and blockade that country.

This is an exhausting time for the American people, but I usually try to maintain a dark sense of humor. The day that Trump essentially took over Venezuela, I had stayed up very late. My husband was sleeping. He woke up, and it’s his birthday. He says, “Honey, what’d you get me for my birthday?” I said, “Venezuela.” He goes, “What are you talking about?” If you don’t have some kind of sense of humor, how do you get through this?

We have a Congress in a fetal position. The Speaker of the House, the leader of the Senate — they have their thumb in their mouth. This is a very frightening time. What I loved is that Stuart said it will not last, and I agree with him.

“I would say we’re in an autocracy. We have an autocratic president and an autocratic party. I don’t think it will stay that way.” -Stuart Stevens

JONATHAN ALTER:

We’ll get to the “will not last” part later. But Norm, you know so much about how Congress works. Is this supine position and their attitude toward Venezuela different than in the past? Is it worse? What explains the craven weakness of this Article I institution?

NORMAN ORNSTEIN:

Jonathan, I would take only one small issue with Barbara: Their thumbs are actually in another orifice. Beyond that, I’ve never seen anything like this. The historical analogies you mentioned: we could find examples for much of what Trump has done at different times in American history, even predations against not just immigrants, but American citizens. Under Woodrow Wilson’s Attorney General, we had a period of terror perpetrated against Americans who didn’t toe the Wilson line. We’ve had racism of the worst type, even under Wilson, compared to now. We’ve seen corruption in presidents.

But the combination of open lying, willingness to use violent force against Americans and threats, the attempt to overthrow an election — all of this is unprecedented. We’ve had congresses that gave in before, including during military adventures. The War Powers Resolution has been a hollow instrument. Once a president commits troops, Congress is supposed to act within 60 or 90 days, but they’re not going to say, “Pull the troops out,” if they might be under siege.

And yet we have always had congresses that applied oversight. When there were abuses by presidents, Congress showed institutional patriotism, a belief that its own institution mattered and that it would protect its powers. What we see now is not a political party running the House and Senate; it’s a cult, and they cave to the cult. We’ve seen this in horrific ways in the response to the murder of a 37‑year‑old mother in Minneapolis.

I’ve seen maybe one or two tepid responses by Republicans in the House and Senate, with many others shrugging or joining in the lies about this woman after she’s dead. This is unprecedented and shocking.

“When there were abuses by presidents, Congress showed institutional patriotism, a belief that its own institution mattered and that it would protect its powers. What we see now is not a political party running the House and Senate; it’s a cult, and they cave to the cult.” -Norman Ornstein

JONATHAN ALTER:

Stuart, you said calling this mere partisanship is like saying Ebola is just the flu. Why is this a cult rather than longstanding Republican behavior that comes out of their corporate view of the world, where you don’t attack your boss, you follow the CEO, no matter what? What makes this different and what explains the cowardice of people falling in line, including over the murder in Minneapolis?

STUART STEVENS:

I’ve thought about this a lot because I helped elect a lot of these guys. We developed a system within the Republican Party that rewarded compliance, rewarded those who went along, rewarded obedience, and penalized any deviation. We did this for decades.

One reason it happened: if you go back to [1952], Eisenhower got 39% of the Black vote. In 1964, Goldwater got 7% of that vote, and after that, the Republican Party has been predominantly white. If you’re only trying to appeal to a certain market share, you get good at that and bad at other things. I don’t think any Republican in our lifetime has been elected without a majority of the white vote, down to the school board level.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Barbara, you saw these senators in the cloakroom over many years. You ate with them. You worked on legislation with them. I’m sure you disagreed with them most of the time, but they weren’t like this. What changed? What accounts for this cravenness?

BARBARA BOXER:

I passed many things with Republicans because in the Senate, you have to. I teamed up with John Ensign to write the after-school laws. I worked with John McCain on many initiatives to protect women in the military. That’s how things get done.

I left in the nick of time, right before Trump took the oath of office. Nothing can get done right now. Why has that happened? Stuart knows the situation. When he talks about white voters, you might be interested to know I won all my Senate races with pretty good margins, and I never got the white vote. Never. That proves Stuart’s point.

I think there’s a certain amount of racism running rampant through this. It’s not really talked about. They are frightened of Trump in many ways. This is not me talking; this is some of them talking. They’re frightened of losing their primary. He’s going after some of the Republicans who had the nerve to vote to reaffirm the War Powers Act. They’re also afraid physically.

This is a very insane time. I would be miserable if I were there because this is wrong. You can’t get anything done. I salute the few Republicans who are speaking up. But John Thune is a shadow of his former self. After Alex Padilla got beaten up by what I call the Trump Secret Police Force, I called John Thune. He didn’t take my call. I spoke with his assistant. I said, “Please have him call me. One of our colleagues just got beaten to a pulp. Padilla’s a huge guy. What if it were a little woman like me? We might not live to tell the tale. Please have him call.” “Oh, he understands. We’ll do something.” I’m sickened by it. I mourn what we used to have, and I have tears of anger.

“It’s not really talked about. They are frightened of Trump in many ways. This is not me talking; this is some of them talking. They’re frightened of losing their primary. He’s going after some of the Republicans who had the nerve to vote to reaffirm the War Powers Act. They’re also afraid physically.” -Barbara Boxer

JONATHAN ALTER:

Do you think the Renee Good case will be different? It feels like she’s about to become almost as well-known as George Floyd, even if the story is bumped out of the headlines for a while. After the filing deadlines for primaries pass in the next few months, will some of these guys grow a spine, or is that wishful thinking?

BARBARA BOXER:

I don’t think they’re going to grow a spine at all. Whether she becomes a dominant force in the election is very possible, certainly in nearby states that feel this in their hearts. I’m focused on the midterms, as all of us are. I think this will definitely be an issue.

Trump doesn’t mind having something else happening every day. We haven’t talked about Epstein yet. He’s involved, his best bud. That’s all going to hit the fan. He doesn’t care that all these things are happening because it’s a chaos presidency. [The country] can’t focus. Even in this conversation, it’s hard to focus on one outrageous thing because there are so many.

JONATHAN ALTER:

This goes to the question of what the Venezuelan operation was about. If they increase oil production from less than 1% of the global market to 1.5%, even 2% (which they won’t), it won’t bring gas prices down in time for the midterms. Even the corruption is not the answer as to why he did this. Is it just spectacle, distraction? Decapitation without regime change is just bad theater. Stuart, what’s your take on why Trump did this?

STUART STEVENS:

Trump did it because he could and he enjoyed it. He didn’t like being mocked. You gave Donald Trump the most elite army in the history of the world and the ability to do something like this, it’s irresistible. It makes him feel powerful, and he has a bunch of idiots and dangerous people around him, including Marco Rubio. I don’t think there’s any need to ascribe grand strategy to it.

“You give Donald Trump the most elite army in the history of the world and the ability to do something like this, it’s irresistible.” -Stuart Stevens

JONATHAN ALTER:

Rubio wants on his tombstone that he liberated Cuba, right?

NORM ORNSTEIN:

Rubio’s tombstone will read, “I was only following orders.” I want to add to what Stuart said. It’s about the grift. Remember that Trump sat down with oil company executives and said, “Give me a billion dollars, and you’re going to profit from it.” We know that Paul Singer, a big contributor, bought CITGO, the Venezuelan oil company, soon before this happened, and will benefit enormously. Trump will get more from Singer and others.

If we look at any strategic element, we see that their national strategy is appalling. It is: “I’m going to control the Western Hemisphere, the Russians can control Europe, and the Chinese can control Asia.” This was the first domino to fall in his attempt to control this hemisphere. Greenland, Cuba, and Colombia—all of them, if he doesn’t invade directly, he will find ways to intimidate them and make money.

The consequences are huge for America’s role in the world and for global dynamics. For 80-plus years, we had a level of global stability because of the world order and our support for NATO. The German chancellor has said that Trump has blown up the world order. The Danish prime minister says NATO’s gone. The person happiest with what Trump is doing is Vladimir Putin. The second happiest is Xi, because this is great for China in almost every respect. We’ve had presidents who screwed up the world order, but this is unlike anything and profoundly disturbing.

“Rubio’s tombstone will read, ‘I was only following orders.’” -Norm Ornstein

JONATHAN ALTER:

Let’s focus on China. There’s been talk about whether this gives Xi a green light to go into Taiwan. As a California senator, you focused a lot on China. Wouldn’t Trump apply a double standard and say, “I have total power in the Western Hemisphere, but that doesn’t mean you have power in Asia, and if you go into Taiwan, fuck around and find out what happens”? Might Xi be deterred because Trump is acting like a cowboy? Does that make sense, Senator, or does it give Xi a green light?

BARBARA BOXER:

I agree with Norm one hundred percent. This is crazy stuff. It takes us back to spheres of influence before World War II — “we can do whatever we want in our backyard.” If he doesn’t invade, he will use power and threats to get what he wants. He wants to be rewarded by the oil companies. As someone who stood up strongly against oil companies wrecking California’s coastline — and did so in a bipartisan way — we were able to stop them. They hated me. They tried to beat me every time.

He has sent the signal that he can do whatever he wants in this hemisphere because he can. He is a madman. He doesn’t drink, but he is drunk with power. The people around him love the power. Marco Rubio is a classic case. You go back to what he said about Trump and how he stood up to him, and we were proud of him. Now he’s a complete little baby in the fetal position with the blankie and a teddy bear.

If Trump tries to say, “I didn’t mean that for you, China. I just meant it for me,” he’ll be laughed out. He doesn’t want to go to war with China [and they know it].

“He has sent the signal that he can do whatever he wants in this hemisphere because he can. He is a madman. He doesn’t drink, but he is drunk with power.”-Barbara Boxer

JONATHAN ALTER:

Stuart, you really know Rubio. What happened to the guy? We all know politicians are opportunists, motivated by reelection or a big cabinet position, but many respected him. If you were putting him on the couch, how would you analyze what happened?

STUART STEVENS:

The whole rise of Marco Rubio is very quixotic. He became a favorite of Jeb Bush when Jeb was governor. Jeb was impressed that Marco was married to a former Miami Dolphins cheerleader. In Florida, you can be a lobbyist and a state senator. As Marco rose under Jeb’s patronage, you can watch his salary at the lobbying firm go up. He was on the cover of TIME as a Republican savior.

The image was that Marco would be everything the party needed: Hispanics, optimism. He ran against Trump in 2016. Trump broke him. Trump breaks people. When he makes senators, like Roger Wicker, vote for Pete Hegseth, it’s not because he thinks Hegseth is good. He wants to prove, “I can make you do this.” It’s Saddam making families pay for the bullet to kill their loved one. He has a feral sense of how to break people.

Had Marco stayed who he was, you could argue he could be positioned as an alternative to Trump in the party. Now he can’t be. The same with Chris Christie. Sadly, he endorsed Trump. Same with Nikki Haley. Had they stayed who they were, they might have some future. There never was a lot to Marco.

“Trump breaks people. It’s Saddam making families pay for the bullet to kill their loved ones.” -Stuart Stevens

JONATHAN ALTER:

So you think he was overrated when he was on those magazine covers?

STUART STEVENS:

Yes. He was a DEI candidate.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Barbara, you talked about physical safety, something all three of you know about. When Mitt Romney spoke to McKay Coppins, he said he had enough money to hire bodyguards, but other senators didn’t, and that Trump might have been convicted in his impeachment trial after January 6th if some colleagues had his independent resources for 24/7 bodyguards. This is a dictatorship-type conversation going back to 2021. How big a deal will physical safety be when historians sort out why this level of intimidation took place?

BARBARA BOXER:

This level of intimidation, the secret police, and all of that — this is the moment. If we don’t change this in the next election — if we don’t have a free and fair election — which I believe we will because we have an election system run state by state, county by county — then history will record this.

NORM ORNSTEIN:

Some House and Senate Republicans have faced physical threats. I believe that a significant part of why Bill Cassidy voted for RFK Jr.— the deciding vote —despite being a physician proud of vaccinating kids in Louisiana, was that he and his family were threatened.

Since then, he’s done an occasional tepid tweet saying vaccines protect kids, and it’s too bad some are dying of measles, but then he falls back in line. Others have faced questions of public safety and stood up to it. If you’re staying in the office to avoid being threatened by outsiders or the president, get the fuck out of the office. You don’t belong there.

Barbara was there for the right reasons. A lot of her colleagues were, too. Many Republicans Stuart worked for were there for the right reasons. Some who came in for the right reasons are no longer acting that way. It’s a nihilistic group. They are craven. Some senators went along with everything and then said, “I’m going to retire,” and behaved the same way even after they retired, like Rob Portman. He didn’t want everyone at his country club calling him an apostate.

They go along to be part of the cult. It’s hard to break with the cult. They’ve been radicalized. The level of moral cowardice is shocking. Many of us who have known and worked with these Republicans are shocked at how they lost every bit of moral courage or spine, and I can’t forgive it. It’s not just what Trump has done; it’s what the broader Republican fabric has done. Stuart has written eloquently about this, but it’s the sad reality. I’d like to be optimistic. I can’t be.

“If you’re staying in the office to avoid being threatened by outsiders or the president, get the fuck out of the office. You don’t belong there.” -Norm Ornstein

JONATHAN ALTER:

It’s the character test of a generation, and it’s pass/fail. We’ve been talking about the people who have failed. I want to introduce the possibility, not optimism, but the hope that after the Democrats take control of the House, we could see some kind of shift. What would Democratic control of the House do?

BARBARA BOXER:

I’d like to answer that because I’ve been in that situation. When we saw about 17 Republicans in the House say yes to extending subsidies or tax credits for healthcare, we have to ask whether that has a chance in the Senate. I’ve talked to Angus King. He’s working hard on this. He thinks he can deliver it, maybe for a year or two. That would be fantastic.

If it’s not on the level, it means Mike Johnson spoke to Thune and said, “I can’t control this. Kill it over there.” Keep your eye on that. I pray it’s on the level. I know people who are struggling and losing their healthcare. This is a death sentence to our own people. This administration is killing us in the streets, with healthcare cuts, with nutrition cuts.

To your question of how to check this president: the best way is through the budget. We can haul his people in front of committees and impeach this one or that one, but it’s never going to happen in the Senate. If you really want to do something, cut the hell out of the budget for ICE. Get these people off the streets.

“If you really want to do something, cut the hell out of the budget for ICE. Get these people off the streets.” -Barbara Boxer

JONATHAN ALTER:

Norm, is it possible that a year from now, this expansion of the police state through ICE can be stopped by the House cutting off funding? Or banning masks to allow some of the accountability other law enforcement agencies respect? Or can Trump shift money around and make sure Tom Homan has all the money and discretion he needs to keep hiring jackboot thugs?

NORM ORNSTEIN:

Here, we have to introduce the Supreme Court, which has given Trump enormous power. It’s a bogus theory of the unitary executive that cuts out Congress. They are carving power from Congress and leaving a blank check for the president. Trump will illegally shift money from other agencies, from programs that benefit blue states and Democrats, and shuffle that money into ICE.

Democrats in the House can do some things and control the legislative process to a degree. Republicans are precariously close to losing the majority in the House. We’ve had one death and one departure. I suggested that Don Bacon and Tom Massie, the only two with any courage, temporarily join the Democrats, bring in Hakeem Jeffries as speaker, and create some checks and balances. Unlikely, but it would be nice.

I would like to be as optimistic as Barbara about a fair election, but the US Postal Service has quietly said they’re no longer going to postmark mail when it’s picked up, but only at sorting stations. You can imagine many mail‑in ballots stuck at sorting stations until after the election and considered invalid. If that happened in California and the state said, “We’re going to count those ballots; we know they were mailed beforehand,” those votes would be challenged.

We’re going to have ICE agents in blue states sent to the polls, where they’ll pull a few citizens out of line, beat them, and haul them off for three days to keep people from voting. We have a Justice Department dedicated to undermining the vote. If we had an opportunity to curtail this, and it looked like Trump was completely underwater, even with much of his base, that’s when he invokes the Insurrection Act and declares martial law. He’s been working to get military leaders who will go along, just as ICE agents are happy to fire on American citizens. They see them as the enemy. That’s what tribalism has done. It’s not just cultism; it’s tribalism.

“I would like to be as optimistic as Barbara about a fair election, but the US Postal Service has quietly said they’re no longer going to postmark mail when it’s picked up, but only at sorting stations. You can imagine many mail‑in ballots stuck at sorting stations until after the election.” -Norm Ornstein

JONATHAN ALTER:

Stuart, what do you think the midterms will be like? Will we have martial law, seizure of voting machines, that kind of thing?

STUART STEVENS:

I don’t know. In 23 states, there are provisions to stand up a state version of the National Guard. During World War II, the National Guard was nationalized, so states passed laws to create state militias. In California, it’s the California Guard, about a thousand people. There are provisions for this in Illinois. I think governors should stand up these forces as significant military forces because Trump responds to strength, not weakness. What would it mean to have 25,000 California Guard? I’d rather be governor with that than without it.

This election should be more like the elections last November than not. There was a myth that the 2024 election was a realignment election for Republicans. That coalition, which existed for one day, was a Fabergé egg. It was always unsupportable. In this past November, it reverted to the mean. The Hispanic vote dropped to 30%. Virginia and New Jersey, which are not wildly liberal states, elected Democratic governors in both of them.

JONATHAN ALTER:

You’re saying if the margins are like the 2025 margins, even if Trump declared martial law, he’d still lose the midterms.

STUART STEVENS:

Yes, I think so. But if he declares martial law, you’re off to the races. Who knows what will happen then?

JONATHAN ALTER:

Ezra Levin from Indivisible, which led the No Kings demonstrations, is talking about a possible general strike. Often autocratic regimes fall after a general strike when people say, “We’re shutting down society unless you relent.” Could we be headed for paralyzing street action by the end of this year?

STUART STEVENS:

If I had 10 hours a day to devote as a volunteer to politics, I would devote it to trying to elect Democrats rather than to a general strike. The reason Trump is in power is that he won elections. How do you get him out of power? You have to defeat him in elections, at least as long as our system exists. Politics is usually a game of small numbers; these margins will really count.

My hope is that if Democrats take the House, they will govern with the understanding that the Republican Party is not a governing partner. You could have argued that after Trump we’d elect a normal president, people would be relieved to go back to normalcy, and that would be rewarded. We tried that with Biden. It didn’t work.

If I ran the House, the first day in power I would hold it open 24 or 48 hours. I would cut off all funding for ICE. I would cut off funding for the executive branch. You have to be confrontational. Look at Governor Newsom. After the 2024 election, his immediate reaction was to move right and go interview Charlie Kirk. Democrats rejected that. He changed and now he’s the leading antagonist of Trump, attacking him in a very Trump‑like way, and he’s being rewarded. This is an election in which courage and the ability to fight back will be rewarded.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Barbara, since you’ve known him a long time, a lot of people say Gavin Newsom is the front‑runner for 2028. Do you agree?

BARBARA BOXER:

I do. He’s the one whose voice is out there, very strong. Bill Clinton once told us, “It’s better to be strong and wrong than right and weak.” He is just out there. We need that.

I want to respond to this frightening picture of going down the rabbit hole of fear that we won’t have a fair election. I think it’s a waste of time. I don’t like talking about Trump running for another term. You almost make it a reality when you talk about that. I think it’s a mistake to talk about gloom and doom and what he’s going to do. You only make it more likely.

We’ve got secretaries of state in every blue state and hopefully in red states who are fair and will protect against this post office business. I’ve read about it and it’s awful, but there are ways to get around it, just as there were ways for Black people to vote even though they thought they’d be killed. They did it. The bottom line is we’re going to vote.

I remember the George H. W. Bush election when Clinton beat him. We printed up tee‑shirts against Bush listing every country he went to in the last year. I can envision that kind of thing for Trump: Venezuela, Iran, China, tariffs, all the places he cares about. He doesn’t care about us. We can’t afford anything. We can’t get healthcare or housing right. Our kids are hungry. Education’s impossible. We have to stick to everyday issues. In some districts we can talk about democracy and foreign policy, but the bottom line is he doesn’t care about us.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Norm, what are your thoughts on that? Do you think Charlie Cook is right about the number of swing districts, or could there be a blowout?

NORM ORNSTEIN:

I doubt there will be a blowout, but there are more volatile and changeable districts than Charlie thinks. We’ll see some swings. I believe we’re going to have an economic disaster next year. Trump is going to replace Jay Powell, the Fed chair, most likely with Kevin Hassett, my former colleague [from the American Enterprise Institute]. There are times when I tweet, “Siri, show me a clown masquerading as an economist,” about him.

There will be a huge backlash. The Fed controls short‑term interest rates. Long‑term rates are set by the market, and the market will say, “This is terrible.” Long‑term rates, mortgages, car loans will go up. Some Senate seats we wouldn’t normally think of as in play may be in play. That’s when we’ll see Trump double down.

The reason I talk about a potential [martial law] disaster in the election is to mobilize forces to guard against it. I’m part of a task force on election crises. We have many people working to counter it. If you say, “Don’t worry, we’ll have a fair election,” we won’t get the needed mobilization, including local groups and election officials.

The Supreme Court may rule in a pivotal case that could blow up what remains of the Voting Rights Act. If they take away Section 2, we will see immediate mobilization across southern and some western states to erase every majority‑minority district, to re‑redistrict.

You could see as many as 17 House seats Democrats now hold disappear, making a landslide less likely. It doesn’t mean we won’t see a Democratic majority in the House, but it’s not likely to be as big.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Norm, what is the organization you’re involved in that they could support for a safe election?

NORM ORNSTEIN:

Protect Democracy is the group behind the task force on election crises, which includes many admirable Republicans. The Campaign Legal Center, which I chaired for many years, is another. Those are good places to start when it comes to keeping elections fair and safe.

I’m counting on Justices Sotomayor and Jackson to slow‑walk this process so we don’t get an announcement of that case as quickly as we could. Absent that, you’re going to see a flurry of lawsuits, and that’s where Mark Elias and his group Democracy Docket and the Campaign Legal Center come in. They’ll file the lawsuits.

We’re still going to see attempts to re‑redistrict even in states that have announced plans. These are dangers we must be aware of. If that happens, it doesn’t mean we throw up our hands and say we can’t win. It means we double down on finding other districts. Outcomes are not certain, but we have to be aware of the dangers and do whatever we can to fight them.

JONATHAN ALTER:

Last quick answer, to bring it back to the horrible events in Minneapolis. Is that just another story everybody forgets in a few weeks, or does it mark a change in the debate?

STUART STEVENS:

I think it will be very significant. It’s hard to talk about it without getting emotional, but I think it will matter.

NORM ORNSTEIN:

I don’t think this is going away. It puts more of a spotlight on what these thugs are doing. We’re going to get more videos, more incidents of violence. One of the most important elements is that this has gotten enough attention to penetrate among people who don’t usually pay much attention to politics.

For anybody who has even a modicum of decency, you can’t look at this and say, “They’re doing what they’re supposed to do.” No reasonable person could say that a 37‑year‑old mother in a Honda Pilot was intent on going after an ICE agent when she was surrounded by agents with guns. They violated every standard of conduct for ICE and it’s not going to go away. This is my hometown of Minneapolis, and I am heartsick. I hope this is a turning point for people who tolerated other stuff and won’t tolerate it anymore.

BARBARA BOXER:

Thanks to the brave person who filmed this, we have seen it with our own eyes, and they can’t tell us what we saw was wrong. We look at it in slow motion over and over again. This is not going away. It shows the cruelty, the inhumanity, the secret police against our own people. It will not stop, unfortunately. When it happens again and again, it will motivate people to say, “We have had enough of this.”

JONATHAN ALTER:

Senator Barbara Boxer, Stuart Stevens, Norm Ornstein, thanks so much.

OK, here’s my short “Then and Now” convo with Princeton Professor Julian Zelizer, our latest weekly effort (every Friday at noon) to convey some of the historical context of the news: